ever_neutral: ([beg] a goddamn problem)
[personal profile] ever_neutral
08 | the ship you want to break up so you can stan the hell out of them



Does it need saying?



SPOILERS UP TO THE END OF S4 FYI





SO. When I say that Rose/Ten is the ship I want to break up, I really mean Rose/Ten 2.0 (also known as "Cloen" ? ? ?) is the ship I want to break up. Because. Well. When I first saw Journey's End, I fully admit to yelling "ABOUT TIME" (... or something) when they ate each other's faces. But really, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, Rose ending up with the Doctor's clone is JUST A LITTLE BIT BIZARRE. I don't particularly condone it. Firstly because Doomsday WAS SUCH PERFECT MISERY WHY WOULD YOU RUIN IT. Secondly because the manufactured HEA just doesn't... fly. It's a totally unproblematised fairytale ending, a wish fulfilment follow-up to "How long are you gonna stay with me?"/"Forever". That doesn't sit well with me in canon. Especially since that's the last we see of them.

But on the other hand, it's also the exact reason for them being on this meme. A !human! Doctor should be a complete riotous mess. A human Doctor paired with Rose should be a complete riotous mess. And unfortunately, none of the post-Journey's End fic I've read has depicted the ship as I secretly (not so secretly) want it to be depicted. For one thing, I really deeply feel that the relationship should just... completely implode and fall apart. And then -- IDK. I actually don't know. But I'd pay good money to see a completely unromanticised Rose/Ten. What would that even look like? WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

Shadiness aside, I do think that this ship says a lot of really fascinating things about the Doctor. One is that Ten seems to be the only incarnation with a strong personal desire for a legit human life. Nine was indifferent, Eleven is -- Eleven; yet, Ten literally went out of his way to give the woman he loved a better version of himself to take home. LMAO? And it says a lot that the original Ten resigned himself to walking away (and leaving his copy with Rose): it shows that he knew very well it was a pipe dream. Because, really, a normal human life? Growing old together with the object of his affections? A brand new start? Redemption? All of that is impossible. He will never be able to have that. He will never be able to even deserve that.

But at least, he can give his lady love a clone (... lol). I think that for Ten, this is the ultimate gift (... lol) to both Rose and "himself". It's everything he wants -- everything that the real him can't have -- wrapped in a big blue bow. Original Ten can't be saved, but his doppelganger -- the shiny, new (= innocent?), mortal version of himself -- can at least be given the chance to be whipped into shape by the woman who represents all the things in life worth wanting: hope, redemption, humanity, normality, etc. etc.

It's also interesting that Ten genuinely believes that Rose would just go along with it. Of course, he takes off before she has any opportunity to argue otherwise, but the point stands. I think it reveals something about their relationship that hardcore shippers probably aren't going to appreciate me suggesting: that deep down, Ten knows/fears/suspects that the man with whom Rose is in love isn't the reality of him. Granted, this isn't remotely unique to Rose/Ten. This is characteristic of virtually every doctor/companion dynamic: Ten keeps his distance from Martha because he's uncomfortable with her idealized love for him, Eleven spends a lot of time angsting about constantly disappointing Amy, etcetera etcetera -- the Doctor is a very screwed up little boy / old man, what's new.

But Rose/Ten IS notable insofar as it's the only doctor/companion duo in New Who where the Doctor is canonically in love with his human companion (who is also in love with him). This tends to be problematic. Mostly because Rose is a 19-year-old shop assistant and the Doctor is a [insert ludicrous age here] Time Lord with a habit of being a controlling, paternalistic bag of dicks. And although they're brilliant partners in crimes and best friends and all that jazz, there's always that subtle imbalance of power throughout their relationship. One of the best examples is in School Reunion, when Rose meets Sarah Jane Smith for the first time and is confronted with the reality that she may not be ~special after all -- the Doctor has literally been around the block with dozens of plucky gorgeous women, and left most of them in emotional ruins. And the reason for his ~damage, as explained by Ten, is that "you can spend the rest of your life with me, but I can't spend the rest of mine with you."

Which brings me to the most unpopular opinion I may spout in this fandom: I don't think that Rose is the be-all and end-all for the Doctor. I don't think he loved her ~more than he will ever love anyone in his life. Because. He's the Doctor. He loves everyone -- but after losing his entire planet, he never loves anyone more than his own self-preservation. And you can see that clear as day in Doomsday: Rose is ready and willing to leave EVERYTHING behind, permanently, to stay with him, but he's already prepared to let go -- even before they're forcibly separated, he attempts to make the decision for her to stay in the alternate dimension with her family and without him. And he lets go again in Journey's End. Because the truth is that he was always prepared for the end. She wasn't.

So, no, I don't agree with the right!shipping side of fandom's view of the Doctor's love for Rose: I don't think his feelings for her amounted to an ~all-consuming, beyond reason, beyond rationality, beyond self-preservation, "without you the universe itself ceases to have meaning" sort of earth-shaking codependence (that's Eleven's Amy thing -- but that's a topic for another day), nor should that really be... something... to be aspired to...? Rather, I think Rose was the Doctor's attempt to do it right.

And the epitome of that effort is Rose/Ten 2.0. Who I want to break up in their AU. So, so much. It would make me cry masochistic tears of bloody joy. TL;DR WHERE IS THE FIC?

Date: 2013-02-10 11:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vergoldung.livejournal.com
UNFAIR UNFAIR UNFAIR UNFAIR

Date: 2013-02-10 11:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vergoldung.livejournal.com
lol don't be

i know what i'll be doing tonight

Date: 2013-02-10 11:48 am (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-10 11:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] upupa-epops.livejournal.com
For one thing, I really deeply feel that the relationship should just... completely implode and fall apart. And then -- IDK. I actually don't know. But I'd pay good money to see a completely unromanticised Rose/Ten. What would that even look like? WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

I ALMOST WROTE THIS FIC ONCE, KINDLY KICK ME TO GET IT FINISHED! It was in Polish, but fuck it. WE SHALL DISCUSS.

Bless you and bless your cat. This post summarizes everything I ever wanted from this ship.

Date: 2013-02-10 01:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
*kicks you*

WE SHALL DISCUSS.
We shall indeed.

This post blesses your cat too.

Date: 2013-02-10 12:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
I am terrible and still haven't seen Seasons 1-2 of NewWho. I keep trying. I swear. But the aesthetic is offputting to me and I just cannot engage. Sigh. I want to love Nine and Rose and (I guess) Mickey, but the production/directorial choices just keep smacking me upside the head and forcing me outside the "this is ~fantastically real" place.

Idek. I'm just here to complain and get points for attendance. I have no Rose/Ten feelings except for how I find the ~epic love~ treatment they get in fandom to be annoying, especially in how Rose is used as the One True Love against which all companions cannot compare. Yawwwn.

Date: 2013-02-10 01:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
(I guess) Mickey
LOL. You have to love Mickey, beware. Otherwise you and Eleonore will come to blows.

There there.

Date: 2013-02-10 01:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
Otherwise you and Eleonore will come to blows.

But then you could wrong!ship us.

Date: 2013-02-10 01:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
You're terrible, why do I even like you.

Date: 2013-02-11 01:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com


do you understand this game b/c i don't

Date: 2013-02-11 01:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
 photo youhadonejobphil.jpg


idk i'm trying to be ironic and your animus keeps screaming at me... probably b/c i'm making no sense which is fair

Date: 2013-02-11 07:49 pm (UTC)
next_to_normal: (LOL)
From: [personal profile] next_to_normal
LMFAO. THAT IS THE BEST. THE BESSSSSSSSSSSSST.

Date: 2013-02-11 07:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
RIIIGHT. INTERNET MEME GOLD RIGHT THAR.

i swear it's never not funny :D

Date: 2013-02-12 01:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] local-max.livejournal.com
ok but seriously why would you put ONE PERSON AND ONE PERSON ONLY in charge of the supervision of dinosaurs. they were extinct until like right now and you put one person in charge of it that's not fair to phil to put all the blame on him I think

I mean there was probably no training program or anything, or maybe they gave him training for supervising like iguanas or something but I don't think skills are 100% transferrable
Edited Date: 2013-02-12 01:37 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-11 01:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
I love this thread sfm. I have no idea what's going on but it seems to be escalating in hilarity. Every time I scroll past the shrieking kitty I burst out laughing.

Date: 2013-02-12 07:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
I have no idea what's going on but it seems to be escalating in hilarity.
i'm the exact same

Date: 2013-02-10 02:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wheatear.livejournal.com
lol TenTwo

I always thought it was interesting that Ten also literally said, "Hey, my clone committed genocide, but that's okay, you can fix him, Rose!" So basically Ten 2.0 had all the maniacal and power-tripping qualities of Ten, but in a human body. And Rose was supposed to make him better.

Date: 2013-02-10 02:14 pm (UTC)
next_to_normal: (chinhands)
From: [personal profile] next_to_normal
But I'd pay good money to see a completely unromanticised Rose/Ten. What would that even look like? WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

A+

I think it reveals something about their relationship that hardcore shippers probably aren't going to appreciate me suggesting: that deep down, Ten knows/fears/suspects that the man with whom Rose is in love isn't the reality of him.

A+

And although they're brilliant partners in crimes and best friends and all that jazz, there's always that subtle imbalance of power throughout their relationship. One of the best examples is in School Reunion, when Rose meets Sarah Jane Smith for the first time and is confronted with the reality that she may not be ~special after all -- the Doctor has literally been around the block with dozens of plucky gorgeous women, and left most of them in emotional ruins.

A+

I don't think that Rose is the be-all and end-all for the Doctor. I don't think he loved her ~more than he will ever love anyone in his life. Because. He's the Doctor. He loves everyone -- but after losing his entire planet, he never loves anyone more than his own self-preservation.

A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Date: 2013-02-11 01:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
thank (x all those pluses)

Date: 2013-02-10 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xx-pinkstar.livejournal.com
Firstly because Doomsday WAS SUCH PERFECT MISERY WHY WOULD YOU RUIN IT.

pretty much my feelings about this ship in a nutshell.

hell i would probs still ship them if they'd just left it the fuck alone. UR HAPPY ENDINGS ARE NOT NEEDED IN MY TOWN.

Which brings me to the most unpopular opinion I may spout in this fandom: I don't think that Rose is the be-all and end-all for the Doctor. I don't think he loved her ~more than he will ever love anyone in his life. Because. He's the Doctor. He loves everyone -- but after losing his entire planet, he never loves anyone more than his own self-preservation.


woah I just had an epiphany or something.

awesome words.
Edited Date: 2013-02-10 03:28 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-11 01:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
UR HAPPY ENDINGS ARE NOT NEEDED IN MY TOWN.
praise

woah I just had an epiphany or something.
lol.

thank you, dear.

Date: 2013-02-10 04:14 pm (UTC)
elisi: (Blue Ten/Rose by heartoutofstone)
From: [personal profile] elisi
And the epitome of that effort is Rose/Ten 2.0. Who I want to break up in their AU. So, so much. It would make me cry masochistic tears of bloody joy. TL;DR WHERE IS THE FIC?
Run, don't walk, and watch this vid: Signed, the Doctor. Don't read any of the blurb, just press play. You can thank me later.

ETA: Dunno why it double posted, and I might be back later to flail/discuss/disagree with some of the things here. But 'tis all good stuff. :)
Edited Date: 2013-02-10 04:38 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-11 02:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
BLESS. I'm going to have to watch that a few times to really let it sink in, I think. But TY for the rec -- it's pretty much the only non-schmoopy piece of fanwork I've seen focused on Rose/Ten post- Journey's End. \o/

Date: 2013-02-10 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pocochina.livejournal.com
So..all of my opinions are completely uneducated because I still haven't watched all of S2, but yes, what I got out of it was this, to the point where I was surprised to see what a common right!ship it seems to be. like:

Ten knows/fears/suspects that the man with whom Rose is in love isn't the reality of him.

was it not all about this?

I don't think his feelings for her amounted to an ~all-consuming, beyond reason, beyond rationality, beyond self-preservation, "without you the universe itself ceases to have meaning" sort of earth-shaking codependence (that's Eleven's Amy thing -- but that's a topic for another day), nor should that really be... something... to be aspired to...? Rather, I think Rose was the Doctor's attempt to do it right.

Yeah, exactly. I think the Doctor, in those early seasons, was in desperate need of someone to ground him, and he latched onto Rose. And Rose wanted a way to have her own adventures, and the Doctor provided that, so she latched onto him. On that level, the clone is pretty apt.
Edited Date: 2013-02-10 06:08 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-11 02:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
idk fandom seems to be quite enamored with their epic love story, lol? Admittedly, the presentation of the relationship was pretty straightforward in canon so it's not hard to see why.

I think the Doctor, in those early seasons, was in desperate need of someone to ground him, and he latched onto Rose. And Rose wanted a way to have her own adventures, and the Doctor provided that, so she latched onto him. On that level, the clone is pretty apt.
lol.

Yeah. I think it's clear that they genuinely loved each other? But there was a lot of idealism wrapped up in it too.

Date: 2013-02-10 10:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rosaxx50.livejournal.com
#ROSE/TEN2.0 ENDGAME SHIPPER FOREVER.

#I REGRET NOTHING.

(I curl up in a ball and cry I REJECT THIS at the thought of Ten2.0 and Rose not ending up together in some way, in any 'verse where he exists. If he doesn't exist, I don't feel compelled to wish he did. In my head, Ten2.0 and Rose are flying around the alt!universe in their shiny new TARDIS getting into trouble. This post was not meant for me, lol.)

I agree with everything you say about original!10/Rose though.

I have a hard time thinking of Ten2.0 as a clone tbh because it's not DNA they share (considering Donna's mixed up in there too), it's memories.

deep down, Ten knows/fears/suspects that the man with whom Rose is in love isn't the reality of him.

This is sort of a given. (1) She knows nothing about over 800 years of his life, (2) sh sounds like she's spent longer searching for him, probably, than she ever did with him. But I think School Reunion and Girl in the Fireplace are gamechangers because Rose is confronted with the knowledge that he loved before her (Sarah Jane) and he will love again after (Reinette), that knowledge is there through the entire back half of s2. And I will say that after Rose comes back after he sends her away in Doomsday, he's accepting enough of it. Of course, then the white wall happens...

I don't think that Rose is the be-all and end-all for the Doctor. I don't think he loved her ~more than he will ever love anyone in his life.

Obvs, Doctor/TARDIS is the forever ship that's why. It may be the part of fandom I'm in, but I don't see this opinion around much any longer, even around the right!shipping fandom. (I went through this phase of loving immortal!Rose but have since pretty much moved on from that.) Especially since Amy/Eleven and Eleven/River have become so popular. I do think that Rose (and her family) was something of a rebound after losing Gallifrey, and that was part of what made her so important to him, but even in s4 you could see signs that he was moving on.

My ideal ending after JE is pretty flexible
(1) Happily ever after, but not fluffy because I can't stand too much fluff anyway
(2) It takes years or decades for them to actually be together, because trauma
(3) Ten2.0 gets commitment issues, fakes his own death, and runs off to Brazil. When he returns after a few years ready to try for a relationship, he finds out he's too late because Rose has shacked up with alt!Martha and has no time for him any longer. alt!Martha/Rose 4eva

Though I still support Rose's return in s4 because I would not trade Turn Left, which is my favourite DW ep, for anything. For ANYTHING.

And there's still this unwritten version of JE floating around in my head where Ten2.0 is never created, Rose has to return to Pete's World to save that universe, chooses herself to go back (but with a mini-Tardis in hand because TARDIS & adventure), and the last Ten/Rose scene is her sending a message across the void to him and they get to finish their goodbyes/unsaid love confessions etc. And then they move on. Also, Donna's doesn't get brainwashed.She and her family go with Rose to Pete's 'verse for money reasons, and because Rose has a TARDIS too now? But it still leaves Ten emotionally devastated enough to listen to Snow Patrol for hours at a time.

And let me continue with this weird comment of randomness and unpopular opinions, by telling you that I've decided I ship Eleven/River after all. WHAT SAY YOU.

In conclusion, have emotionally devastating unhappy fic that might actually suit your post-JE headcanon:
All Roads Lead to You (Teen) he one where Tentoo/Rose actually implodes because of internal problems, not external.
Stardust Girl (Adult - Non-Con - Angst, Character Study, Drama, Horror) I read this and then I couldn't read anything else for days because devastation
The Devil You Know (Adult, for sexuality, violence, and strong language)
Edited Date: 2013-02-11 01:27 am (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-11 02:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
lol.

I have a hard time thinking of Ten2.0 as a clone tbh because it's not DNA they share (considering Donna's mixed up in there too), it's memories.
I STILL JUST FIND THE IDEA RLY WEIRD TBH

(2) sh sounds like she's spent longer searching for him, probably, than she ever did with him.
Not sure what you mean by this?

IA about School Reunion / GITF being significant moments for Rose in having her idealism somewhat checked. The thing is that she still clearly holds on in spite of that: in Doomsday she declares that she's made her choice and she's not going to leave him. And I think that's about her own co-dependence? It's about her love and need for him, not the other way round. As for Ten, obviously it's true that he's selfish enough to allow Rose choosing him over her family/everything, lol. Still, the salient point is that she's the one actively clinging to their relationship in a realistic sense. I think the codependence was indeed greater on her side.

Obvs, Doctor/TARDIS is the forever ship that's why.
Praise be.

idk, I still see a bit of militaristic "THE DOCTOR WILL NEVER LOVE ANYONE LIKE HE DID ROSE" ranting, lol. But you're probably right in that the popularity of other Doctor pairings has lessened that overall.

(2) It takes years or decades for them to actually be together, because trauma
This would be my preferred option.

(3) Ten2.0 gets commitment issues, fakes his own death, and runs off to Brazil. When he returns after a few years ready to try for a relationship, he finds out he's too late because Rose has shacked up with alt!Martha and has no time for him any longer. alt!Martha/Rose 4eva
Also good.

And oooooh, thanks for the fic recs! You have come through where none could. Praise.

Date: 2013-02-11 03:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rosaxx50.livejournal.com
Not sure what you mean by this?

I think that she spent longer travelling between universes (and missing Ten) than she actually spent with Ten, judging from how long it must have taken to create a Dimension Hopper and go through all those universes.

I think the codependence was indeed greater on her side.

I would think this, and I do agree that Rose was the one more actively holding onto their relationship, and then I remember Ten in Runaway Bride about to drown under the Thames and wonder about the codependence ratios. They were both so codependent.

idk, I still see a bit of militaristic "THE DOCTOR WILL NEVER LOVE ANYONE LIKE HE DID ROSE" ranting, lol. But you're probably right in that the popularity of other Doctor pairings has lessened that overall.

You know, to an extent I actually agree that he will never love anyone like he loved Rose? But that mostly stems from thinking that he's never going to lose Gallifrey again and therefore never go on such a gigantic, clingy rebound. Until Amy. But I don't think of Rose as the love of the Doctor's life or anything like that, because lol. (Also, Master and TARDIS)

(2) It takes years or decades for them to actually be together, because trauma
This would be my preferred option.


I actually read a gorgeous fic about this once and woe, cannot find it again.

Date: 2013-02-11 04:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
I think that she spent longer travelling between universes (and missing Ten) than she actually spent with Ten, judging from how long it must have taken to create a Dimension Hopper and go through all those universes.
Oh, right. Yes. That does fall in line with my reading of the idealistic element.

lol, it feels silly to argue about codependency ratios, but I'll regurgitate what I said to Frances below:

Rose more or less devoted her life to getting back to the Doctor, while the Doctor had an extreme moment of suicidal grief and then got about moving on. My understanding of "co-dependence" is that it amounts to not wanting to keep living without someone, period. So, I don't DISAGREE that the Doctor had a codependent love for Rose, but I honestly think that codependence was eclipsed by her own.


The thing is, I think it's a significant part of the Doctor's overall arc that he always retains more emotional power in his relationships with his companions all the way through -- up until, yes, Amy (and that is an essay for another day ok). Although I don't deny that his love for Rose IS distinct, I'm also loath to take their dynamic as equal and balanced because, I really don't think that's ever true.

I actually read a gorgeous fic about this once and woe, cannot find it again.
WOE.

Date: 2013-02-11 03:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] goldy-dollar.livejournal.com
FIRSTLY:



lol I am hanging in the "this post is not meant for me" corner with [livejournal.com profile] rosaxx50. But I'm commenting anyway, I do what I want.

But really, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, Rose ending up with the Doctor's clone is JUST A LITTLE BIT BIZARRE.

It is SUPER WEIRD and their one scene together on the beach isn't very satisfying and, also, a little contradictory (is he YOU, Ten or is he a genocidal freak and if it is the second then why would you leave him with Rose and if you're just bullshitting then you really need to work on your sales pitch ok). I get what RTD was trying to do and in a way I'm grateful because he left me (us) this whole other universe to play around in. I took that universe and spent years writing fic where Ten and Rose usually worked it out to make myself feel better about the weirdness of the whole thing. And though my mind rejects the notion, it obviously could go the other way. I've seen post-JE fic run the gamut from weddings and babies to Cloen becoming Rose's gay BFF to Cloen dying of metacrisis.

Which brings me to the most unpopular opinion I may spout in this fandom: I don't think that Rose is the be-all and end-all for the Doctor.

I agree with this and, also, I don't agree with this. :p I'm not sure it's a particularly unpopular opinion though? Even when Doctor/Rose fandom was at its height, I remember lots of ranting from certain circles about how Rose wasn't special.

But anyway, I do believe the Doctor ~loves them all~ but I don't think he loves them all in the same way. How he loved Rose was different than how he loved Martha which was different from how he loved Donna and how he loves Amy etc. I do think his love for Rose was romantic in nature and in a pretty distinct way than what we've seen in New Who so far, but I don't think that makes his any other relationships less important.

So, no, I don't agree with the right!shipping side of fandom's view of the Doctor's love for Rose: I don't think his feelings for her amounted to an ~all-consuming, beyond reason, beyond rationality, beyond self-preservation, "without you the universe itself ceases to have meaning" sort of earth-shaking codependence

hahaha I love their co-dependence, I do what I want. But I mean. After Doomsday, Rose devoted her time to building a dimension canon in order to get back to the Doctor while the Doctor basically opted for suicidal death by spider babies. Both pretty messed up coping mechanisms, in my opinion, though Rose's were more productive.

I have no devastating unhappy fic recs for your but I wish you well on your mission.

Date: 2013-02-11 04:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
lol.

I've seen post-JE fic run the gamut from weddings and babies to Cloen becoming Rose's gay BFF to Cloen dying of metacrisis.
LMAO PRAY TELL WHERE THIS FIC IS

I'm not sure it's a particularly unpopular opinion though? Even when Doctor/Rose fandom was at its height, I remember lots of ranting from certain circles about how Rose wasn't special.
Sorry, when I said "this fandom", I was referring to Doctor/Rose fandom. In which, yeah, it is evidently blasphemy!

Obviously IA that the Doctor ~loves them all~.

After Doomsday, Rose devoted her time to building a dimension canon in order to get back to the Doctor while the Doctor basically opted for suicidal death by spider babies. Both pretty messed up coping mechanisms, in my opinion, though Rose's were more productive.
Right, but that's the thing -- Rose more or less devoted her life to getting back to the Doctor, while the Doctor had an extreme moment of suicidal grief and then got about moving on. My understanding of "co-dependence" is that it amounts to not wanting to keep living without someone, period. So, I don't DISAGREE that the Doctor had a codependent love for Rose, but I honestly think that codependence was eclipsed by her own. LOL.

Anyway, I appreciate the input from a right!shipper (I presume)! Continue.

Date: 2013-02-12 03:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] goldy-dollar.livejournal.com
I've seen post-JE fic run the gamut from weddings and babies to Cloen becoming Rose's gay BFF to Cloen dying of metacrisis.
LMAO PRAY TELL WHERE THIS FIC IS


YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THE HORRORS I'VE SUFFERED, MY FRIEND. There's also the famous flower cock fic. I CAN'T MAKE SUCH STUFF UP.

Right, but that's the thing -- Rose more or less devoted her life to getting back to the Doctor, while the Doctor had an extreme moment of suicidal grief and then got about moving on.

lol he tried to drown himself while genociding spider baby aliens though. Rose probably would never try genociding stuff as a coping mechanism.

In all serious though, it's hard for me not to see Rose all over Ten's post-S3 and post-Doomsday arc. He was shitty to Martha because she wasn't Rose! He tried to cure the Master with cuddles because of his loneliness! He enacted torment on the Family of Blood because he's so full of fire and ice and rage! Like... S3 Ten is so delightfully messed up and kind of crazy and there is no way that season would have gone down that way if Rose hadn't fallen into another world.

I guess I see it as... Rose made the Doctor the centre of her life (lbr though all companions do this to some extent) and, no, it's not really vice-versa for the Doctor. But I think post-Time War, Rose became an emotional crutch for the Doctor and so after she was gone, he became delightfully unhinged. Like as bad a sales pitch it is to thrust your genocidal clone at your lady love and then run away, there's this weird twisted logic in Ten thinking Rose can "fix" him if he's full of blooodandangerandrevenge because in his mind, that's what she does for him.

/right!shipping

Date: 2013-02-12 06:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
There's also the famous flower cock fic.
I --

lol he tried to drown himself while genociding spider baby aliens though.
YES BUT EVERYONE HAS SILLY MOMENTS NOW AND THEN

Like... S3 Ten is so delightfully messed up and kind of crazy and there is no way that season would have gone down that way if Rose hadn't fallen into another world.
Okay, IA on that score. Really, I'm not sure we're disagreeing that much, lol. But I think I differ insofar as IMO Ten's aforementioned messed-up-ness isn't just the result of Rose's loss. Like, the Doctor is lonely and full of fire and ice and rage etcetera regardless. Rose's presence just lessened... that.

So, yes to the emotional crutch thing. In which case, you could argue that it's not just about Rose as a person, it's about what she represents.

Like as bad a sales pitch it is to thrust your genocidal clone at your lady love and then run away, there's this weird twisted logic in Ten thinking Rose can "fix" him if he's full of blooodandangerandrevenge because in his mind, that's what she does for him.
lol. No argument here. That just goes back to how much symbolic power their relationship has to him. The thing is that that's where my wrong!shipping comes in -- because I think it's a doomed goal. I don't think the Doctor is being capable of being "fixed" by Rose or anyone, nor should they have that responsibility heaped on them. Hence why I require miserable post-JE fic.

Date: 2013-02-12 01:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] local-max.livejournal.com
I have very few feelings about Rose/10-2 except "wtf" and that is about where it ends, but yes to the rest of this, carry on.

I mean, the main wtf is 10-2 himself, but it's (kind of?) clear that the reason that 10-2 exists at all is so that Rose/10-2 can happen, I think. well, that and having "10" commit genocide without actually being responsible for it. The idea that "show your character power tripping and committing genocide AND having a fairytale ending to your ship without it having consequences to your main character" was the decision, and that there was no time spent disentangling that maybe the genocide and shipping were incompatible, does tend to heighten the wtfery.

so much lol @ the fact that, as others have pointed out, Ten is just like "yeah, he's a genocidal maniac version of me. BUT YOU'RE ROSE SO. go on." And Rose is like, cool. And that's when Mickey is like ugh I'm done with this shit, this AU is too cracky for me
Edited Date: 2013-02-12 01:52 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-02-13 05:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com
The idea that "show your character power tripping and committing genocide AND having a fairytale ending to your ship without it having consequences to your main character" was the decision, and that there was no time spent disentangling that maybe the genocide and shipping were incompatible, does tend to heighten the wtfery.
LOL. Aptly put.

I think that's the most disturbing part, tbh. I mean, pairing up the woman you fancy with a clone of yourself is one thing, but expecting her to fix said clone's genocidal maniac tendencies is too far. LMAO. I wrong!ship it so hard.

Date: 2013-05-26 12:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bellonablack.livejournal.com
Late to the party but yes. ABSOLUTELY.

TENCLONE/ROSE CLONE SHIPS ARE SO FLUFFY THEY GIVE ME A TOOTHACHE. WHHHHHHA. It makes no sense. No reason. No method to the madness. I don't know why it is even a good thing. (and rose does look disappointed even at the time haha) I mean. : /

Profile

ever_neutral: (Default)
ever_neutral

July 2025

S M T W T F S
  12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
2728293031  

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Page generated Jul. 13th, 2025 07:01 am
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios