driving in cars with boys;

[ever_neutral]

17. rosaxx50 prompted: Kate/Seth/Richie and why this worked for you.

I'm using this opportunity to revive THE WRONG!SHIP MEME OF COLD SWEATS AND TERROR. Yet again I have no idea which day to put this entry, but with no further ado:

23 | a couple trio you ship for the wrong reasons that fits too many of these criteria

I mean, obviously the answer to this question is that it works for me because it's HORRIBLE IN EVERY WAY. If it isn't common knowledge that I LIVE FOR THAT STOCKHOLM SYNDROME SHIT (already going to hell, nothing to see here, etc.) then let it be so now. So yeah, when the Geckos held Kate's family hostage I was like "lol, prob gonna ship it" and then lo and behold.

Oh yeah, what other kinds of things do you pick up on? Underage girls?

That would be despicable.

*derp graphic prob to be re-edited when i cbf


I ship every leg in this trash OT3. Let me count the ways.

1. Richie/Seth speaks for itself. It's become mainstream in this day and age to ship the two outlaw brothers together BUT WHAT CAN I SAY, I'M A MAINSTREAM BITCH. The lengths to which Seth and Richie have gone ~for~ each other are respectable indeed. Seth has put Richie first to the detriment of his every relationship, turned the other cheek as Richie crosses lines that (supposedly) disgust him. He doesn't know anything else; his whole world is consumed by this "debt" he owes Richie for saving his life when they were children. Meanwhile, Richie KILLED THEIR ABUSIVE DAD 4 SETH! THAT'S LOVE, BITCH. (Well, that, and Richie just wants to watch the world burn.) Of course Seth would consider that revelation a betrayal, in part because it means the narrative of his life has been a lie the whole time. But the truth frees them to turn a corner in their codependence and, by the end of the season, Richie rides away with Santanico, and Seth with Kate, away from each other. WILL THEY BE REUNITED ONCE MORE? Probably.


2. Kate/Richie was initially squick to me thanks to that pool sequence (also nhf the weird hypersexualisation of Kate) and because frankly Richie pings me on the threat level way more than Seth ever has, which I'd say is fair considering his record of murderating people (inc. women) in both alarming and hilariously blase ways. NONETHELESS, it just goes to show that I can't have Moral Objections to ships for too long before the despicable factor starts appealing to me, which is to say that re: Kate/Richie I went from SHUDDER to YEAHHHHHHHHHH in a remarkably short amount of time! The YEAH part is largely due to the way Kate employs dat soft power after the Geckos take the Fullers hostage: she's playing on that observation of Richie's spontaneous attraction to her in an effort to throw him off -- and by the time they reach the bar, she's enjoying it too.


3. LAST BUT NOT LEAST: The beauty of From Dusk Till Dawn is that it's so balls-out insane that Kate riding off with Seth into the sunset at the end of the season is one of the less eyebrow-raising events in the show. And it is absolutely testament to my inability to give a fuck that I found this ending rather hopeful and even romantic (#a moment of silence for my psychological health). NO BUT LISTEN. Is there any trope more bulletproof than people unexpectedly banding together because of mutual abandonment? Kate's trauma is obvious: she's just lost all the family she had left, almost all at once -- first the senseless loss of her mother, followed by her brother being turned into a monster, following by her having to stake her own goddamn father. Meanwhile, Seth's built his entire life around his brother, believing they would always be Us VS. The World, only to have him apparently pick someone else. (THEM KATE|SCOTT + RICHIE|SETH PARALLELS.) They're the leftovers: the preacher's daughter whose faith has been obliterated, and the professional thief who doesn't believe in anything. It actually makes sense that after everything they'd choose to stick together, because the rest of the world no longer makes sense to either of them.

IN CONCLUSION:

✿♥‿♥✿ ✿♥‿♥✿ ✿♥‿♥✿ ✿♥‿♥✿ ✿♥‿♥✿

Comments

[rosaxx50.livejournal.com]

I do think this is one of the ships where they're at their moral worst around one another. By worst I mean, care the least about anything.

1. I have been thinking about this the past couple of weeks/months, and you know, I don't think co-dependent siblings is my thing after all? But obvs Seth/Richie = most fascinating and sadly co-dependent who nevertheless end the series far apart, ~we have a sacred bond~ (said however ironically)

2. TBH I'm still stuck on the pool sequence. I like what Richie/Kate is in canon with the soft power muscles being stretched as you say, plus Kate actually connecting with Richie too on some level but mostly it's for a power/rebellion trip (early on) and then to get the hell out of dodge alive (later on), but I don't have ~shippy feelings for it.

3. Which makes it all the more ironic that I do have feelings for Kate/Seth, and they're the only pairing in the show that actually gives me shippy feelings (as opposed to fascination and/or pain). But like you said:

Is there any trope more bulletproof than people unexpectedly banding together because of mutual abandonment?

NO THERE IS NOT

(THEM KATE|SCOTT + RICHIE|SETH PARALLELS.) They're the leftovers: the preacher's daughter whose faith has been obliterated, and the professional thief who doesn't believe in anything. It actually makes sense that after everything they'd choose to stick together, because the rest of the world no longer makes sense to either of them.

*Draws hearts and flowers and skulls around this*

This is 110% the reason I ship them tbh, they are literally THE ONLY ONES LEFT. (Except Freddie... but Freddie still has a family to go back to. His arc culminates in choosing his family over revenge.) It's not even about who they are, so much as what they have been through.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

A fair point but I have that day marked out for Angel/Darla. D:

1. BUT. HOW CAN YOU SAY THESE THINGS SO CALMLY WHILE USING A BORGIAS ICON? GET YOUR MIXED SIGNALS UNDER CONTROL.

2. Yeah, Richie/Kate is more an intellectual ship, not an emotional feelz one like the other two legs. I don't have a burning need to see it be more explored than it has been (and besides Richie's off with Santanico now), but all their interactions have been class, so it belongs here.

3. (lol, as far as I'm concerned fascination/pain are synonymous with "shippy feels" but we know what I'm like.) DON'T QUESTION IT. EMBRACE THE UNEXPECTED FEELS.

they are literally THE ONLY ONES LEFT.

HORROR SHOW SURVIVORS OTP. This has potential for some amazing codependence tbh, next season cannot come soon enough.

Except Freddie... but Freddie still has a family to go back to. His arc culminates in choosing his family over revenge.

*single manly tear*

[rosaxx50.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's a co-dependent boys thing because I don't usually care about the boys enough?

I really ship Cesare/Lucrezia because it's... not that co-dependent though?I feel like want each other intensely, but I don't think they really need each other (so much as Cesare needs her safe), and I could see them happy living apart, as long as they frequently visit one another.

#3 "the pain" only applies to Carlos/Santanico though, and I don't really have ~feelings about them per say (except when they break up and I find the scenes themselves emotional for me), because away from watching canon they don't actually give me feelings so much as some intellectual glee?

I can't wait for s2 either wheeeeeere iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. I imagine if we don't get an s2 though.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

lol, let's not argue about the definition of codependence.

#3: Same, I ~appreciate Carlos/Santanico but I'm not frothing at the mouth for their interactions like I am other dynamics. Then again, for the "frothing at the mouth" part to happen I need to be able to see the development of the relationship, and Carlos/Santanico is all in the past.

I imagine if we don't get an s2 though.

R u joking. Don't come to my bar with these sorts of comments.

[scorpiod1.livejournal.com]

I imagine if we don't get an s2 though.

SHUSH DON'T SAY SUCH THINGS. CARLOS COTO IS WRITING THE SCRIPTS RIGHT NOW! /o\

[silverusagi]

There is something strangely compelling about all of them... So very wrong in every way.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

YOU GO HERE TOO? I simply did not know. Carry on.

[silverusagi]

I liked when Richie threw knives at her.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

You have a way of getting right to the heart of the matter.

[xx-pinkstar.livejournal.com]

everything is so beautiful and well bone structured

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

indeed indeed, my friend.

Part 1 (the most embarrassing chain of comments)

[scorpiod1.livejournal.com]

bless you and bless this post tbh

It's become mainstream in this day and age to ship the two outlaw brothers together BUT WHAT CAN I SAY, I'M A MAINSTREAM BITCH

HIGH FIVES MAINSTREAM BITCHES TOGETHER. Sometimes I feel embarrassed by how into Seth/Richie I am because like...oh, look, white guy slash, what else is new BUT I JUST FEEL SO MANY THINGS, OUTLAW AMORAL BROS ARE MY EVERYTHING /o\ #in all fairness, I've shipped it since the film, so when I heard there was going to be a show about it, I was just "oh no I'm going to ship it even harder" and welp, I did.

turned the other cheek as Richie crosses lines that (supposedly) disgust him.

SUPPOSEDLY XDDD that's what kills me, man, like, he was angry about Monica's death for about...a minute? Before he went to hugging him and stroking his hair and telling him they will all be okay. His main concern afterwards was RICHIE DON'T GET US CAUGHT. Seth Gecko has problems. Meanwhile at least when Santanico's influence wore off, Richie expressed guilt for killing her, while Seth...never really did feel bad about just stepping over her body (not that I am trying to absolve Richie as responsibility in killing Monica, but like. at least he felt bad at some point, despite his balls out rationalizations immediately after murdering her. Seth just wanted to get Richie to Mexico lmao)

his whole world is consumed by this "debt" he owes Richie for saving his life when they were children

Oh man I have a lot of feelings about this, this just kills me really because tbh but I do think he feels he owes Richie a debt but it's not even for saving his life that one time as a kid, at least, not just that. I think he SAYS that to make it simple, repayable, but Seth said that Richie used to keep their dad off him as a kid and try to protect him, and I imagine Richie must have saved Seth several other times before in their life and times of being bank robbers, so I feel the reason why it's such a heavy thing is that it's a debt from his whole life. IS THERE EVER ANY REPAYING IT? But I feel that's why Richie tries to set him free at the end from it, so I just /o\ But yeah, figuring out that Richie KILLED their dad changes things, like, I still don't think he was mad because HOW DARE YOU KILL DAD but HOW DARE YOU LIE TO ME FOR MY WHOLE LIFE ABOUT IT, given Seth sees himself as the conman, not the one being conned, and he and Richie are supposed to share everything but...not this apparently. I honestly think he'd be a lot less angry about it if it weren't for like...the way and circumstances he was told.

(Which I find really interesting! Because the labyrinth is supposed to use your mind's memories used to torment you, so was Seth in Richie's head when his labyrinth!Dad told him the truth about Richie, or was that just Seth's own head, already subconsciously aware of the lighter fluid smell and no longer being able to lie to himself about it? #THINGS I THINK ABOUT)

#I think about Seth/Richie a lot ahaha help me I'm sorry for this ramble

Part 2

[scorpiod1.livejournal.com]

I am sorta of into Kate/Richie. I forget that I'm into it because fandom is trying to kill the ship for me and make it some weird romanticized nonsense so I start just avoiding edits and graphics for the on tumblr, but all I want is push-pull, Stockholm syndrome crush weirdness. But lol, I feel you on how it's was a squick, all the reasons you listed do still squick me to an extent, like I can't actually handle their kiss scene without feeling VERY UNCOMFORTABLE (the actors felt iffy too, reportedly) so Idk I straddle a weird I'M UNCOMFORTABLE BUT FASCINATED line for this ship.

But I also really love their weirdo connection? The way they instantly clicked, which I never expected tbh, like how easy it was to spill her guts to him, and I found it really funny and terrible how he tells Jacob he needs to fix his relationship with his daughter, and then threatens her again #Richie Gecko what are you. But I feel like their journeys are similiar (both are being drawn towards the Twister--Kate via Carlos trying to collect her for the sacrifice, and Richie via Santanico in his head, both are on a journey of finding out the truth (though I suppose you can argue all the characters discover some inner truth within the Twister), both are the ones more inclined to believe in a higher power--Kate with God and Richie with his THERE'S A GODDESS IN MY HEAD, both are primarily internal, cerebral characters, though Kate is more Feelings while Richie is more Intellect) (I'm sure there's a fancy word for that but I don't know it). One of my favorite lines is where Kate storms off to find Richie because AT LEAST HE WON'T LIE TO US #stupid feelings.

I worry a bit for Kate though, when Freddie tells her Richie didn't MEAN to kill Monica, and she said "I DIDN'T THINK HE WOULD, HE'S A LOST SOUL, WHO KNOWS WHAT KIND OF TORMENT HE'S BEEN THROUGH," and I'm just, oh Kate honey. SHE'S NOT WRONG technically, so I am not sure if she's holding certain delusions about Richie, or she just didn't want to believe he was a serial killer (which. he's not, so that's fair enough).

Kate employs dat soft power after the Geckos take the Fullers hostage: she's playing on that observation of Richie's spontaneous attraction to her in an effort to throw him off -- and by the time they reach the bar, she's enjoying it too.

It's interesting, because I don't really think Kate succeeds in trying to manipulate Richie into letting her and her family go (every time, it almost works but something happens or comes up; the throwing knife challenge is the closet thing she's come to succeeding and that got deliberately interrupted, imo tbh) but like...she damn near gets him killed. Girl starts to pray and then he almost dies. This is one of my fave things but no one really mentions it.

(agreed the weird hypersexualisation of Kate is fucked up tho; the film had a similar scene? But the actress was an adult, the character was older, and there was no pan up loving close up of her body, it was like...significantly less creepy)

Part 3

[scorpiod1.livejournal.com]

So okay, full disclaimer, I am really not into Seth/Kate as a ship? /o\ (I am not sure if you're aware of this or not) It's mainly because from venturing into the tags and reading the fic, everyone or most of everyone sees and writes them as a standard happily ever after ship the sweeps under the rug the kidnapping and all the shit Seth's done and tries to make it a nice ship. Idk I have a lot of issues with the overall fandom, and I think if you took all that away, I still wouldn't be into the ship because tbh it hits some personal squicks, but I wouldn't dislike it, I just wouldn't be my thing.

But I really appreciate your thought on it, like, it makes a lot sense to me and I actually find the dynamic really interesting in terms of "well, you kidnapped me and we come from utterly different walks of life but I guess I'll go on a roadtrip with you because what else am I gonna do" kind of way. If that makes sense #I like Stockholm Syndrome fuckery too, I just rarely see people explore it. Tbh I like Seth + Kate as a platonic thing, I just can't go there in a shippy sense, but their relationship has A LOT OF POTENTIAL for interesting stuff, and I'm writing like...post S1 Seth + Kate fic that I'm sure no one will like (I'M TRYING to get done before the next season premiers lol let us hope)

I tend to see the ending as not exactly hopeful (to me, I mean. I can see why it rings hopeful, given they're the survivors riding out into the new day and where is there to go but up, so I am not trying to downplay that, but I am just...these two are gonna be so messy, man. But like, I enjoy messy so maybe that's why I focus on that?), but interesting, because Seth and Kate are probably just all out of fucks to give about most things so like, I imagine Kate's "WHY NOT GET IN THE CAR WITH THE DUDE WHO KIDNAPPED MY FAMILY. WHAT ELSE HAVE I GOT TO LOSE, LOL." and Seth is probably all out of fucks to give so instead of doing the responsible thing and drive Kate back to the border, he's gonna take her with him on whatever else he goes (I don't actually think he has any direction or idea yet). It's a really interesting state of mind for both of them and like, I can't imagine what it must feel like to lose your foundations so hard and fast and overnight, essentially. Idk. I don't exactly have feels but I have a fascination?

Part 4 LAST ONE I PROMISE

[scorpiod1.livejournal.com]

They're the leftovers: the preacher's daughter whose faith has been obliterated, and the professional thief who doesn't believe in anything. It actually makes sense that after everything they'd choose to stick together, because the rest of the world no longer makes sense to either of them.

Bless this sentence. THE WORLD NO LONGER MAKES SENSE /o\ Though I think they both come at this from different angles? I think like, in terms of thinking of them as the leftover ones that no one wants, that's important, but I see a big fundamental difference between them in what they've lost, which is--Seth tried to go with his brother at the end and had to be pushed away, while Kate is the one who explicitly pushed her brother away (for like, perfectly understandable reasons, even if they make me sad but still. I suppose you can argue that Kate lost her brother when he became a culebra, but Seth doesn't really seem to feel that way about Richie--initial bad reaction aside--and I don't think show is saying this). So while they've both gone through the same kind of hell, I think they're in different places, mentally. Seth's being rejected while I think Kate is explicitly making the choice to move away from the wreckage and redefine herself in some other way (aka rejecting Freddie's offer). Kate's the one who kills her father; Kate's the one who pushes Scott away; Kate's the one who chooses to go with Seth at the end, while Seth accepts. She's the one making these active choices (like, she's been doing this since the start--Kate makes the active choice to ditch her family and go off with her boyfriend because she wants out on this trip; which is teenagery but I was rooting for her). IDK mainly I bring it up because I actually find that factor really interesting and it's something I don't see other people bring up and it's something I tend I keep in mind.

(though I wouldn't actually say Kate's faith was obliterated? like, I actually really liked her ending, where she yells at her father that God doesn't live in the pages of a book but in them both, and i imagine Kate's taking her idea of what faith is and rethinking it and forming it on her own terms. It's weird, because I found the resolution of her arc really spiritually hopeful and I didn't expect that but I dug it (speaking as like, an atheist but former catholic lol. Sometimes Kate hit personal buttons). Granted we don't know if she changed her mind after that or if she's decided on something else (which she could have, there was a deleted scene cut from the final episode? It's SOMEWHERE. So I always worry about missing material) but I still didn't get that vibe.

Wow I'm really sorry for the length of this comment this is embarrassing I'll show myself out (I swear I tried to cut it down. But I just kept on rambling? /o\)

RE: Part 4 LAST ONE I PROMISE

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Seth's being rejected while I think Kate is explicitly making the choice to move away from the wreckage and redefine herself in some other way (aka rejecting Freddie's offer). Kate's the one who kills her father; Kate's the one who pushes Scott away; Kate's the one who chooses to go with Seth at the end, while Seth accepts. She's the one making these active choices

A;IOSJ;DSKLJSDS;LJS#%#^ EXCELLENT POINTS. Kate's the agent with purpose, Seth is the directionless wanderer. In that sense I don't see a future dynamic where Kate gets "corrupted" by Seth. I mean, she's already had to do terrible things to survive so far, of her own volition, so I hope the show keeps up with making her the active agent in her life.

"Rearranged" would probably be a better description? Although what's really been obliterated is her faith in the people closest to her, since her father's dead and her brother's a culebra, so the only person she can believe in now (besides God) is herself. It's not a dissimilar state to the one Seth finds himself in, where he can no longer rely on Richie and has to redefine himself away from him.

NEVER APOLOGISE FOR EMBARRASSING COMMENT ESSAYS. COME BACK SOON.

RE: Part 3

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

I AM DEVO THAT YOU ARE IMMUNE TO THE KATE/SETH. I HOPE WE CAN STILL BE FRIENDS.

"well, you kidnapped me and we come from utterly different walks of life but I guess I'll go on a roadtrip with you because what else am I gonna do" kind of way. If that makes sense #I like Stockholm Syndrome fuckery too, I just rarely see people explore it.

Ya. I don't need to see it "happen" either, their interactions in canon are my shit, but when I say I ship it I mean it gives me TEH FEELZ (and also I make no distinction between platonic shipping and otherwise shipping, idk). I'M ALL OVER THIS FIC IF/WHEN YOU FINISH AND POST IT.

because Seth and Kate are probably just all out of fucks to give about most things so like, I imagine Kate's "WHY NOT GET IN THE CAR WITH THE DUDE WHO KIDNAPPED MY FAMILY. WHAT ELSE HAVE I GOT TO LOSE, LOL."

QUITE. I realise my understanding of "hopeful and romantic" is fucked. (lol, I described the ending of Gone Girl in those terms too and I'm sure everyone passing by gave me a wide berth). Basically, what you're saying about "losing your foundations so hard and fast" and being in that state with another person where you're both all out of fucks to give... actually really viscerally appeals to me because it's so uncompromisingly honest, and that's why it feels "hopeful" to me (despite it being about the absence of hope) -- as opposed to, I don't know, having a relationship that's driven by idealised notions of the other person and which I'd hope would expect to crash and burn any minute. I honestly think witnessing someone at their lowest point is like... the most romantic thing that can happen, in that it's so DE-romanticised that it becomes romantic. BUT AS HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED, I DO EMOTIONS WRONG, SO FEEL FREE TO IGNORE THIS PARAGRAPH.

RE: Part 2

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

so Idk I straddle a weird I'M UNCOMFORTABLE BUT FASCINATED line for this ship.

Pretty much. IA making them kiss was too much, although the scene itself wasn't particularly squicky for me, and they should have cut it if the actors themselves were squicked. /o\ And I would expunge half of that pool scene if I could, WHY WAS IT THE WAY IT WAS.

both are the ones more inclined to believe in a higher power--Kate with God and Richie with his THERE'S A GODDESS IN MY HEAD

INDEED. But Richie's found "the promised land" now, so to speak, he's headed somewhere with Santanico. Where's Kate headed? ONLY TIME WILL TELL.

I worry a bit for Kate though, when Freddie tells her Richie didn't MEAN to kill Monica, and she said "I DIDN'T THINK HE WOULD, HE'S A LOST SOUL, WHO KNOWS WHAT KIND OF TORMENT HE'S BEEN THROUGH," and I'm just, oh Kate honey.

lol, bless Kate's fountain of misplaced sympathy for everyone. This would be more immediately concerning to me if it were Richie she's driving away with, though.

I HAVE COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN THIS MOMENT TO WHICH YOU REFER, WOE. Time to hunt down the DVDs, perhaps.

THOU HAST BLEST ME

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

HIGH FIVES MAINSTREAM BITCHES TOGETHER.

THE HIGHEST OF FIVES. See the trash; embrace the trash; live the trash; be the trash.

lol, Seth's inability to give a fuck is comedy. Also I'm terrible because his constantly throwing people under the bus for/because/in favour of Richie only multiplies the incest feelz.

I think he SAYS that to make it simple, repayable, but Seth said that Richie used to keep their dad off him as a kid and try to protect him, and I imagine Richie must have saved Seth several other times before in their life and times of being bank robbers, so I feel the reason why it's such a heavy thing is that it's a debt from his whole life. IS THERE EVER ANY REPAYING IT?

MY PAIN NEVER ENDS. You're absolutely on point, of course -- Richie getting Seth out of the burning house is just the representative event. That's exactly why I feel like their splitting up at the end of the season is (ostensibly) a good thing for Seth, since Richie "setting him free" (heh) means he has to figure out who the hell he is outside of their relationship. And ITA that Seth is more pressed about being lied to than the actual murderating their dad part and that SETH IS THE CONMAN, NOT THE ONE BEING CONNED. ::tears of le blood:: That being said I also think Seth blaming Richie and "taking their father's side" is pretty psychologically typical of someone who grew up in an abusive home.

so was Seth in Richie's head when his labyrinth!Dad told him the truth about Richie, or was that just Seth's own head, already subconsciously aware of the lighter fluid smell and no longer being able to lie to himself about it? #THINGS I THINK ABOUT

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M LIKIN' THE LATTER??? Mainly because it'd be so in character for Seth to repress that suspicion most of his life.

NEVER APOLOGISE FOR GECKO TALK, MY FRIEND.