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ever_neutral06 | the ship where fandom is DOING IT WRONG
What about me? I love you so much. And I tried to make you go away. I
killed you and it didn't help. And I hate it. I hate that it's so hard,
and that you can hurt me so much. I know everything that you did because
you did it to me. Oh God, I wish that I wished you dead. I don't. I
can't.
killed you and it didn't help. And I hate it. I hate that it's so hard,
and that you can hurt me so much. I know everything that you did because
you did it to me. Oh God, I wish that I wished you dead. I don't. I
can't.
I dallied on this "day", but then I figured that in the realm of "fandom IS DOING IT WRONG" ships, there is no formative contender than Buffy/Angel. I mean "formative" in the sense that the Buffyverse was my first fandom and I'd never before seen such incorrect shipping in my life. There are no scars like Buffy fandom scars, &c. &c. Obviously, the wrong shipping (as in, WRONG WRONG WRONG, not wrong!shipping which is in fact what we're here for) surrounds the idea of B/A as a straightforward pure epic starcrossed forever love, when clearly at its best it's pretty deliberately a horror story. I do think the show(s) had a tendency to romanticize the story (... a lot), but in some ways I also think that was a somewhat necessary part of the story -- it's the epitome of that heady, destructive (understatement) first love, the kind you feel like you "can't breathe" without, the kind that scars you for life. And Buffy really is emotionally scarred by Angel -- and all of the bad related to Angel -- for years into her adulthood.
In a word, it's trainwreck syndrome. I don't care for the fluff/schmoop; I don't buy into their pure forever love; I'm not sure they'd even work together in the long-term or are even particularly compatible as people aside from their damage (though I do see the potential in their friendship). But dude, watching this shit growing up, I all but threw myself before the altar of Joss Whedon's sadism.
Also, Buffy/Angelus is the kind of thing that makes one scared to walk around their house, do u feel.
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Date: 2013-01-29 03:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-30 02:56 pm (UTC)I don't think I would if there wasn't that underbelly (outerskeleton?) of scars that the relationship leaves on Buffy, and what it means about her ~childhood.
Indeed.
There there.
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Date: 2013-01-29 05:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-29 05:36 pm (UTC)As a newbie, I don't ship these two after having watched the series in part because I love the later seasons and do find the Buffy/Spike dynamic more interesting (and more familiar somehow to my own life) BUT when I watching last year for the first time OH YES I cried for Buffy and wanted them to be together in S2. Yes, I thought SMG and DB had terrific chemistry. (Although I enjoy DB much more now that I've started watching Bones. He's a treat on that show.) And yes, the subversion of romantic tropes is fantastic. The way S3 wanted to have it both ways sort of killed it for me - but also, I wanted Buffy to move on and find happiness and closure. (Ha. I was new to Whedon, what did I know?) Although I think there's some subversion in that season as well - the fact that they CAN'T move on, or won't, can't let go of the ideal of each other, and it's killing any possibility of a lasting relationship. What's love got to do with it? (I know everyone remembers the last slow dance in The Prom but what I remember from that episode is the scene where he breaks up with her - ostensibly for her own good - in a freaking sewer. It really doesn't get any more subversive that than.)
But I abhor it when fans of either 'ship try to deny that either person was important to Buffy. (And in fact, I get cranky that people forget that Riley existed or minimize the damage he did to her as well. All of her lovers were important to her, during the relationships and afterwards.)
And I also don't ship B/A for the reasons you mention - the "twu luv" thing is the very thing being mocked here. (I really wish Joss had had the balls to write Angel in-character in Chosen - a scene with Buffy and Angel grown up and moved on, sharing where they are now in there lives, could have been fantastic.)
I have recently read some good B/A fics, in an attempt to expand my reading habits. In fact I've read some wonderful post-Chosen fics that are either B/A & S/B or B/A/S. When they do right by all the characters I'm a happy camper. I've also seen at least one or more try to have it both ways - Buffy/Angelus and Buffy/Angel, or all-demon AU's, etc. I find that the two 'shippers aren't as different as they think - I can find OOC romantic fluff in Spuffy fics, and plenty of wild hot sex in Bangel fics. When it comes to fandom, the heart wants what it wants.
I think what Joss did with the so-called S8 is unfortunate and just plain ugly, because it comes off as if he decided, "in the show I was subverting twu luv but these silly fangirls just don't get it so I'm going to parody Bangel fanfiction."
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Date: 2013-01-30 01:29 am (UTC)I know everyone remembers the last slow dance in The Prom but what I remember from that episode is the scene where he breaks up with her - ostensibly for her own good - in a freaking sewer.
HAHA THIS FOREVER. And yeah, I actually really enjoy the S3 angst for some reason, probably because it IS so destructive and futile? It's two people trying to hold on after the innocence of their relationship has been utterly destroyed, and they KNOW full well that it's hopeless but still they keep coming back, almost against hope. I love it as much as I hate it.
lol romantic Buffy/Spike fluff, what even is that.
"in the show I was subverting twu luv but these silly fangirls just don't get it so I'm going to parody Bangel fanfiction."
Yeah, basically this. UNFORTUNATE indeed.
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Date: 2013-01-29 06:11 pm (UTC)yes. S2 still creeps me out, several years and re-watches later. epic love, gtfo.
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Date: 2013-01-29 07:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-29 07:43 pm (UTC)LMAO. Bless.
I do think the show(s) had a tendency to romanticize the story (... a lot), but in some ways I also think that was a somewhat necessary part of the story -- it's the epitome of that heady, destructive (understatement) first love, the kind you feel like you "can't breathe" without, the kind that scars you for life.
True. And I think BtVS walks a fine line between romanticizing the story while also problematizing it? Most shows tend to tip too far one way or the other - romanticizing gross relationships is easy to find, but I also notice dysfunctional ships that are SO dysfunctional that we as viewers can't understand what the one character possibly sees in the other. (I feel this way a lot with S/E. Like, emotionally, I could not wrap my head around it when Elena kept fighting for Stefan in S3, even though I intellectually get why she was so determined to make it work.) But with Buffy and Angel, even though I never really shipped it, I could still appreciate the ~emotional moments like the "can't breathe" scene. I always got why Buffy would be all in with this relationship and how she wouldn't see the red flags.
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Date: 2013-01-30 01:40 am (UTC)but I also notice dysfunctional ships that are SO dysfunctional that we as viewers can't understand what the one character possibly sees in the other. (I feel this way a lot with S/E. Like, emotionally, I could not wrap my head around it when Elena kept fighting for Stefan in S3, even though I intellectually get why she was so determined to make it work.)
Haha, this would be more true for me with S4 S/E, I think? S3 S/E made me furious because it all but completely erased Elena's voice by way of glossing over her trauma in favor of the romantic ~reunion. But S4 S/E is so blatantly emotionally abusive in a totally un-romanticised way that I can't see how even the staunchest apologists could see anything remotely romantic there.
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Date: 2013-01-30 09:58 pm (UTC)When BtVS walks that line, I feel conflicted - I want Buffy to be happy and it breaks my heart when Angel(us) treats her so cruelly, while at the same time I also love how deliciously subversive it is. But S3 S/E tips so far into abusive that I lost that sense of inner conflict? It's just as dysfunctional as B/A, but lacks that edge of heartbreaking romanticism, even though the show clearly wants me to have romantic feels. Instead, I'm just all "GTFO Stefan."
And maybe the erasing of Elena's voice is part of that? Buffy's trauma is always on full display (even if she often blames herself for it). Elena either doesn't know or doesn't care that she's a victim of abuse, and so I feel RELIEVED whenever Elena acknowledges her trauma, not heartbroken, because it means she's finally showing some self-awareness and emotional self-preservation.
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Date: 2013-01-31 09:27 am (UTC)Instead, I'm just all "GTFO Stefan."
Also extremely valid.
And maybe the erasing of Elena's voice is part of that? Buffy's trauma is always on full display (even if she often blames herself for it).
That is a very good point. The thing about Buffy/Angel on BtVS is that Buffy was always a more fleshed out character than Angel (who was mostly just a symbol), so his man pain never took away from her story. Not so with Stefan/Elena. Though I think Elena is and was well aware as to the extent of her victimization; she just refused to accept it? Continuing to fight for Stefan and their relationship, perversely, gave her (the illusion of having) more power than the opposite.
(Related: I feel like maybe one reason for our different reactions to B/A and S/E -- despite the similarities of the pairings -- might be how the two shows portrayed the heroine's feelings for the abusive bf? The thing that gets to me about late S3 / S4 S/E is that I don't even see any passion on Elena's part -- she's essentially going through the motions even though her heart's no longer in it. Which is just really hard to swallow. Whereas, with B/A, you can clearly see that no matter how ugly it got, Buffy was operating on sheer emotion. It was always about her, her feelings and desires. She held on to the relationship for herself, not for him. That's a huge distinction to me.)
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Date: 2013-01-31 08:14 pm (UTC)Yeah, I've been lazy in calling it S3 S/E, because that's actually my breaking point. I didn't care one way or another about S/E until the show started showing signs that the writers knew S/E was not a fairy tale, so I did ship it in the beginning of S3. Post-Wickery Bridge, it's like, "obviously this is actually a nightmare, but we're going to pretend like it's a fairy tale anyway," which leads to your other point:
Related: I feel like maybe one reason for our different reactions to B/A and S/E -- despite the similarities of the pairings -- might be how the two shows portrayed the heroine's feelings for the abusive bf?
YES. I forgot to mention that, but I think it's hugely important, too. Because that's part of my confusion, like, WHY is Elena fighting so hard for this relationship that she doesn't even seem to want?* It's not romantic or even tragic, it's just masochistic.
*This is a rhetorical question, lol. Like I said above, I know her reasons why, I just don't ~get it on an emotional level.
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Date: 2013-01-29 08:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-30 01:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-29 10:07 pm (UTC)surrounds the idea of B/A as a straightforward pure epic starcrossed forever love, when clearly at its best it's pretty deliberately a horror story.
Yup.
but in some ways I also think that was a somewhat necessary part of the story -- it's the epitome of that heady, destructive (understatement) first love, the kind you feel like you "can't breathe" without
Yup, again.
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Date: 2013-01-29 11:09 pm (UTC)Oh, I feel. This last line made me LOL @ work - and made me wanna go read some b/a(us) fic....is there such a thing??
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Date: 2013-01-30 01:45 am (UTC)THERE IS INDEED. Here's one from my memories to get you started. ;P
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Date: 2013-02-01 12:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-03 08:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-29 11:57 pm (UTC)Until this morning on the bus composing a comment to this post.
Which, through the divine intervention of my phone and the lj app, is now lost.
And I can't remember what I said.
But you gave me feelings for a second there.
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Date: 2013-01-30 01:47 am (UTC)My work is complete.
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Date: 2013-01-30 04:39 am (UTC)yes to your everything
I don't ship them, necessarily, but when I think of them fondly, it is not their "true love" ... it is those episodes when they fight to be the people they are outside of each other.... which is mostly BtVS s4 I'd say... when their idealism shatters.
but it is also heartbreaking (and necessary) that they hold onto that, as well. after Joyce dies, when Buffy comes back, and they remind each other of perfect selves they both know they never were and can't ever be...
I just talked myself into shipping BAngel. what even.
my RL BAngel lady is going to be so pleased.
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Date: 2013-01-30 02:22 pm (UTC)and yes, i get your feels. teenage ~idealism isn't something that typically appeals to me but.
LOL YOUR RL BANGEL LADY. report back.
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Date: 2013-01-30 04:47 pm (UTC)LOL YOUR RL BANGEL LADY. report back.
SHE IS FLAWLESS AND MAGIC AND RAINBOWS (delightful creature loves Bangel, prefers the later seasons, and favorite character is Spike - SHE IS LOVE)
I should be having a lady date soon ((she just started watching tVD at my request)) and I will report back, obviously.
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Date: 2013-01-30 11:12 am (UTC)Basically, I CRIED A LOT AT ALL THE TIMES THAT ANGEL BROKE BUFFY'S HEART.
And Angelus/Buffy was probably my first wrong!ship.
Disclaimer: Although I have rewatched Buffy sporadically I have not had a proper rewatch since it actually aired. My memories are those of my teenage self. She was not as cool as me.
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Date: 2013-01-30 02:53 pm (UTC)(lol yes, the Stefan/Elena::Angel/Buffy similarities are unavoidable. It's up in the air as to how I can actively dislike the first but still have fondness for the latter tbh.)
Basically, I CRIED A LOT AT ALL THE TIMES THAT ANGEL BROKE BUFFY'S HEART.
SAME WHO DIDN'T.
And Angelus/Buffy was probably my first wrong!ship.
That's so beautiful.
Every version of you is cool. BUT OOOH DO A REWATCH, DO IT DO IT. ::bounce::
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Date: 2013-01-30 08:14 pm (UTC)Ok, this is by no means an in-depth study, and it is possibly not even accurate, but. Based on my own (limited) observations of B/A shipping, and those who ship it as the epic true love story it is so clearly NOT, I have developed a theory of sorts. The writing in the Buffyverse is really excellent with 'show don't tell.' There are a lot of character and story developments/growth/arcs that are never explicitly stated, instead they are implied. For example, Buffy's S6 arc. She is clearly depressed, for the entirety of that season. And there are obvious signs/symptoms of depression for years before s6 and it's there still in s7. Buffy is a character that struggles with depression. We can all agree on this. Except, she never sits down with anyone and says "I think I'm depressed, and I need some help." No one else ever sits down and says "You know, I've been noticing some things, and I think Buffy may be suffering from depression." There's no Very Special Episode that deals with mental health, and neatly ties it all up in 42 minutes. ANd because it's not spelled out, it's easy for some people to miss it completely. "They never ~said Buffy was depressed!" Etc.
And the disconnect between what we see and what we're told, explains a lot about B/A shipping, imo. Because the characters view it as true!love, and they desperately cling to that notion, because both Buffy and Angel have some serious issues on their own, and they came together at a pivotal point in their lives and managed to create an impressive amount of mutual damage, and then they both clung to the idea each other in ways that aren't healthy at all. But their actions, both when they are together and when they aren't, tell a completely different story. The teenage girl with wild romantic fantasies and a savior complex, and the self-flagellating adult vampire who desperately wanted to be saved. They wanted to be an epic romantic love. They clung to that ideal, no matter how much it fucked them up. And it seems like shipping B/A is a case of taking what's being said at face value, instead of looking at what's being shown.
Wow, that was a really long rant, and I don't know if I've even said anything by the end of it. I have a lot of feelings about 'show don't tell.' It's a thing.
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Date: 2013-01-31 09:06 am (UTC)No one else ever sits down and says "You know, I've been noticing some things, and I think Buffy may be suffering from depression." There's no Very Special Episode that deals with mental health, and neatly ties it all up in 42 minutes. ANd because it's not spelled out, it's easy for some people to miss it completely. "They never ~said Buffy was depressed!" Etc.
Very very true.
WE ARE IN RIOTOUS AGREEMENT ALL ROUND. The point about taking the story at face value v.s. looking at all the details is extremely correct. And in some ways taking it at face value might not necessarily be such a wholly bad thing, because it means you're empathizing so strongly with what the characters are feeling? Which, to David and Sarah's credit, they really sold.
A good comment.
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Date: 2013-04-05 05:46 pm (UTC)How did I miss this comment before? Just YES YES and more YES to all of this. There is so much THERE there. You're brilliant.
And it seems like shipping B/A is a case of taking what's being said at face value, instead of looking at what's being shown.
*nods* Because that is what a lot of people want AND need; they don't see the irony of it. Hell, I didn't at first, because I was caught up in the romance (and I watched the entire series on netflix within three weeks, so I had to go back and let it "breathe" a bit.) Sometimes I think that subtlety backfires on Joss.
I have a lot of feelings about 'show don't tell.' It's a thing.
I need to make an icon for that, because - yes. I have many feelings.
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Date: 2013-04-09 05:14 pm (UTC)I need to make an icon for that, because - yes. I have many feelings.
YES.
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Date: 2013-04-09 08:20 pm (UTC)It occurs to me that my "Showtime" icon could be reworked to add "Show don't tell" but 1) I'm not great with text and too lazy to rework it, and 2) a whole lot of fans would completely misinterpret it.
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Date: 2013-01-31 04:57 pm (UTC)I think it's funny that in my old age when I do Buffy rewatches, I do find myself getting really emotional at some of the moments that are so silly and poignant and ~romanticized. I don't want to talk about how I always tear up embarrassingly during "Prom" when they dance to Wild Horses because lol, irony. But still, so fucking poignant.
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Date: 2013-02-06 12:58 pm (UTC)I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS POST AND I REALLY NEED TO COMMENT ON IT DESPITE THE LATENESS.
First off : your picspam is good to my eyes.
Second (off? lol) : YOU ARE FOREVER CRACKING ME UP OKAY. JUST THE WAY YOU DO WORDS I DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO EXPLAIN IT BUT I WISH FOR IT TO GO ON INDEFINITELY BECAUSE YOU ARE HILARIOUS. I just prefer not to tell you most times because your sarcasm is the best when the content is the worst and it feels unfair that I keep laughing out loud at the description of your pain (except that I am pretty sure that you want me to, so I suppose that my angst is your evil intent etc etc). BUT TODAY IS ONE OF THOSE DAYS WHERE I AM RIDICULOUS IN MY ALEX!LOVE AND NEED TO TELL YOU ALL THE CREEPY EMOTING YOU ARE PUTTING ME THROUGH. WHAT IS MY LIFE AND WHAT EVEN WITH MY LIFE-CHOCES SRSLY. But yeah, basically you win at this meme and this line : But dude, watching this shit growing up, I all but threw myself before the altar of Joss Whedon's sadism. for the epic win please.
Also, Buffy/Angelus is the kind of thing that makes one scared to walk around their house, do u feel.
MY SHIPPPP :') THEY ARE FOREVER MY WRONG!FAVORITES. SORRY NOT SORRY.
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Date: 2013-02-06 01:51 pm (UTC)Late comments are gifts from Satan.
lol I don't like that graphic but I'm glad you do.
I AIM FOR COMEDY, AMIGO. Happy to entertain. /smooch. TYVM for sharing your wrong!shipping feels, and for such an enthusiastic and flattering comment. Have a garland of roses:
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Date: 2013-02-06 02:01 pm (UTC)Late comments are gifts from Satan.
This pleases me greatly as I am in the process of word-vomiting at you in your latest-before-last (I am making this a thing kk) TVD review/recap/thinky-thoughts-that-are-just-bulletpoints-of-feels. Not that the opposite would have refrained me from posting because I am selfish and will force my emoting down your throat always. BUT. I keep getting interupted by the devil that is Marta's new baby AND UGH MULTITASTING WHAT IS IT.
Thank you for the roses, I am touched.
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Date: 2013-02-20 01:14 am (UTC)*Also you may or may not have inspired me to try this meme myself. Maybe*
I wasn't in Buffy fandom when it was on, so B/A is not a formative wrong ship for me, but YES. I mean, you know my feelings, but I felt the need to comment all the same. ALL THE YES TO THIS POST.
They are so INTERESTING when they're this first love where Buffy THINKS it's forever, and Angel THINKS she's his redemption, and all that good stuff. But when people play it straight -- they don't just THINK they're those things, they ARE those things -- that's boring as fuck. IDGI.